... Ha; figured that would get your attention.

Seriously, I think you are wrong, at least in part. I agree with your observation about knowledge being the most important factor in determining value. However ...

>> This "subjective" business is really not applicable. <<

Of course it is. If we were talking about the manufacture of mass consumer goods, we'd have a fairly objective way of determining value, or at least retail price. Cost of raw material + cost of production process + manufacturer profit markup + shipping to retailer + retailer markup = retail cost [give or take the increases added by intermediate distributors]. With collectibles of any kind, these objective factors play no part at all. The vast majority of people in this country would think we were all nuts if they knew what we were paying for some of our favorite obsolete chips. How about Beanie Babies, Jim? Barbie dolls? Or any other collectible? It's ALL SUBJECTIVE.

>> If an uninformed seller places a chip in auction and the uninformed buyers bid on it - WE HAVE NOTHING! The final result will establish one collector wanted the chip for his/her collection. Real value via the market place has not been established. <<

How is that any different from a non-auction sale of the same nature? And what about an auction in which an informed seller places a chip in auction and a number of highly knowledgeable bidders negotiate a final price (i.e., by bidding on the chip)? Doesn't that at least give us some clue as to the collectible value of the chip? As much as if the same buyer paid the same price for the same chip in a private sale?

>> Just look at the quality chips on Ebay going for a fraction of what they are worth because no one including the bidder knows anything about the chip. In addition, look at the pieces of junk going for big dollars like the Riv. porn girls. <<

Of course, not all sales are going to happen at the exact market value (is there even such a thing?). Simple math -- many sales, averaged out, will give a rough approximation of the value as perceived by the available pool of buyers. The real rub comes when there is a very small supply and a very small demand. How do you establish market value then?

Example: JB recently announced the sale of the last of his four Floridian "1" chips. He didn't announce the sale price, but based on his past practice, it is probably reasonable to conclude that it exceeded the price of Example #3, which sold for $2200. Does the price paid for Example #4, whatever it was, establish the market value of all examples of this chip? Probably not. If one of the four comes on the market again and there are a lot of potential buyers, the sale price will probably be higher than the price for #4. On the other hand, if two of them come on the market at the same time and there is only one potential buyer, the selling price might well be lower than #4 (albeit, examples #2 and #3 might still be sold at a profit, based on their lower initial cost).

Would it have made a difference in determining the "value" of this chip if the sale had been consummated at the same price at the conclusion of an auction rather than a private negotiation? Doesn't seem so to me.

>> Please Roger, don't try to tell me auctions establish true value. It just isn't so. <<

All by themselves, perhaps not. But, as Archie has already mentioned, the authors of our chip guides consider auction results in establishing their value guides. To the extent that auction sales influence their final published price guide, and to the extent that the rest of us rely on the guides for part of the KNOWLEDGE we use to determine what we will pay for a particular chip, the auctions DO at least play a part in establishing true value (whatever the hell that is).

----- JimBo2 o\-S