... and for clarifying the manner in which you conduct the club auction.

And thank you to whoever it was that convinced Jim to join the discussion. Input from those who have a particular expertise is always helpful (and frequently illuminating).

I have the following observations about the points you made, Jim:

>> I think we might have a misunderstanding on the rules for the club auction. When we went to a no reserve sale we decided to allow the consigner ONE protection bid. It is not that hard to tell the difference between a shill bid and a protection bid and this rule is what I try to enforce. <<

Since it was I who posted the mistaken information about the rules, I appreciate having the correct facts. Unfortunately, my email exchange with Bruce Landau did not mention the "one bid" rule. Which, of course, highlights part of the problem [it was NOT my intention in posting any of this to start a discussion of the club auction; however, everyone else seems to have taken it that way, so ...]. The rules you have metioned are apparently not published anywhere. Nor are the bidders made aware that the club is permitting sellers to bid on their own lots. In my opinion, this unrevealed circumstance makes any seller bid a shill bid as far as the other bidders are concerned. The bidders don't know who the consignors are and, I take it, no announcement is made if a seller bids on his own lot.

In this context, what exactly is the difference between a "protection" bid and "shill" bid anyway, Jim? In each case, the seller increases the bid without the other bidders knowing that he has done so. YOU can tell (maybe) because you have a list of the consignors. But, the bidders can't. And what if the seller is someone you don't know by sight. Or, if you miss the fact that it's a seller bidding (obviously, you have a lot going on and it would be completely understandable if you didn't focus on who is doing the bidding). Frankly, in my opinion, this is not a responsibility which you should have to bear in the middle of trying to run the auction.

>> The shill bidding is a different matter, I have no desire to be part of any auction that encourages and allows shill bidding. <<

I can appreciate the sentiment (albeit, I wouldn't have the same reservation myself). Nevertheless, it seems to me that this is exactly what the format of the club auction does. Under the circumstances of no notice to the bidders, the distinction between "protection bid" and "shill bid" is a distinction without a difference.

Which, finally, gets me back to my real point, which is that it is unseemly for members of the club to be excoriating others for doing exactly that which we do ourselves at our own auction.

Thanks again for your input, Jim. Although I disagree with your opinions, they have added significantly to the conversation. ----- jim o\-S