... came in response to your post, Larry, and I'm going to address it separately here, even though it was prompted in part by the same paragraph that I discussed (in another context) in my previous post.

You said:

>> There's HONEST COMPETITION! <<

and:

>> A shill bid is a dishonest practice. It puts the real bidder at a similar, and worse, disadvantage without any of the clear rules. I say worse because the reserve must be set up front, but the shill can play the bidders depending on the action and other knowledge of who they're dealing with. An intelligent bidder will shun the entire auction site that permits shills faster than he will shun a reserve auction. <<

Now, the epiphany (or, as Steve said, the Light Bulb Going On!) -----

You called the auction a "competition" and said, "the shill can play the bidders" (though I assume that you really meant the SELLER can play the bidders, perhaps with the help of the shill). Then it struck me: those of you who feel shill bidding is inappropriate, unfair, unethical or illegal think that auction sales are GAMES, subject to the normal conventions of fair play and good sportsmanship!

THEY'RE NOT! These auctions are businesses (even when the seller is a casual participant). The completed auction is a SALE. The high bidder doesn't WIN ANYTHING; he BUYS MERCHANDISE.

Now it's true that the auction venues (and a lot of sellers, too) promote and encourage the GAME/COMPETITION/WINNING concept (for COMMERCIAL purposes). But, the fact of the matter is, this is nothing more or less than a particular form of BUY-SELL NEGOTIATIONS between or among two or more participants.

Again, you said the seller/shill can "play" the bidders depending on the action and other knowledge of who they're dealing with. Interesting observation; sounds a lot like what goes on EVERY DAY in the world of business negotations, real estate sales, stock brokerage and any other sale offering where there are two or more potential buyers (which is to say, just about everything).

I should redo my survey to see what the professional/business/work backgrounds of the respondents are. I'd bet a chip or two that there's a strong correlation between the degree of entreprenurial/sales/business background and the shill bidding opinions. ----- jim o\-S