... Archie: >> Don't you think that those auction's credibility would be devastated if it became known that highly valued chips don't trade hands ..... that the site is just a vehicle to obtain false values on scarce to rare items? A chip that was shill bid to $500 now has a track record that can be cited in a future sale. "Such and such chip brought $500 at our 1999 sale" ... when the fact is it didn't sell at all. In effect, it was bought back by the seller under the I.D. of a false buyer. THAT, (in my opinion), IS WHY SHILL BIDS SHOULD BE DISALLOWED..... and how bidders get hurt.... ebay notwithstanding. <<

This is the best FACTUAL argument against the use of shill bidding that has been presented in this discussion and raises a valid concern.

On the other hand, it is possibly as much or more an indictment of generalized unethical conduct by chip dealers than it is an indictment of the use of shill bidders in auctions. Do you and other cataloguers use reported private sales to help arrive at catalog prices? If so, what's to prevent a dealer and a compliant "buyer" from reporting that a particular chip has changed hands at a particular price when in fact the whole "transaction" was shammed up for exactly the purpose you describe (building up the catalog value).

Or, do you use reported sales by dealers without buyer confirmation? Such as, dealer posts on BB "I sold Chip A for $1000 today; buyer wants to remain confidential for security reasons". I know for a fact that such sales actually take place, but what's to prevent a dealer from trumping one up on his own?

You also said: >> Here is my view on WHY shills should not be utilized ... and I'm specifically excluding ebay. << and >> ebay notwithstanding. <<

Might I ask why you excluded eBay? Is it because cataloguers do not consider eBay sales in determining the catalog values? Or some other reason?

And finally, you started off saying: >> I'm happy to see your last sentence to the above post, "I'm not done yet". <<

Not meaning to be flip, but this may be one of those "be careful what you wish for" deals. I'm not done yet, but you may not like where I'm eventually going. Just a guess based on the nature of your comments. And, nothing personal, as the ultimate subject has nothing to do with you as an individual.

BTW, better late than never!! <g> ----- jim o\-S