... Jack and have no plans to do so any time soon.

You have stated your opinion well:

>> there is a big difference between shill and reserve.
the honest way is to have the reserve,
the fraud way is the shill <<

but it is just that, an opinion, which doesn't answer the underlying question: why is use of shill bidding a "fraud"? There is no deception (except perhaps the self-deception on the part of the buyer that he can get something at a "steal").

If the Suzie placed the competing bids herself (rather than thru a 3rd party or shill bidder), would you still consider it a fraud?

>> where are the buyer right's <<

In the examples I posed, all three of them, Billy Bobb has EXACTLY the same right -- to buy the auction item for $20. What other "rights" would you like him to have?

>> all you sellers are very greedy will try anything to get the
mighty dollars <<

Think about this, Jack: Suzie Seller gets the EXACT SAME DOLLARS (mighty or otherwise) in each of the three different auctions. How does the fact that in one she uses a shill bidder make her any more greedy in that situation than if she simply set a higher minimum bid or a hidden reserve in the same amount?

I understand your visceral response, but what is the logic behind the response? In each case, Billy Bobb gets the same item for the same price; Suzie Seller gets the same price for the same item.

What is the factual difference? How is Billy Bobb hurt in the one case, but not the other two? How is Suzie greedy in the one case and not the other two?

Once again, Jack, I'm asking more than just the opinion or emotion -- I'm looking for the underlying facts on which the opinion is based; the reason for the emotion. ----- jim o\-S