I have been working on this since David posted the email from Chuck, although I was never sure whether it would be posted, it did allow me to think thru this entire issue. I now post it in response to Chuck‘s apology, so that he, and others, may be able to understand why I followed the course of action that I did.

I remind Chuck, that much of what occurred came after he posted that we had not been friends for a long time (which would mean he did not regard us as friends at the time he sent me the email). It is also after the later email you sent me. Part of the discussion seems to be why did I forward it to David, I will try to explain. Warning, I shared this with a mutual friend of Chuck’s and mine, ad he called this a legal brief-it is a bit long, but it is reduced from what I originally had (it is only a third of the length it was). The friend also said it was time to kiss and make up, so pucker up Chuck…

I had tried to give Joe Pavlik an opportunity to explain himself, apologize, something. I was not happy with the contention within the local chipper community (specifically David and Joe-who I regard as friends). Chuck sent me an email suggesting I drop it, and I defended David and his wife’s feelings regarding Joe’s infamous remark regarding ‘fat’ wives. In fairness to Chuck, suggesting a person drop the matter (especially that matter) was not an unreasonable suggestion.

But when Chuck responded with the email David posted, I was justifiably very upset when I received it, and wanted to respond. My concern was I would lead with my anger, and getting into an email (or posted) shouting match with Chuck seemed pointless. I did discuss the matter with a select few friends seeking their guidance, and chose to follow it. That advice was (in effect) to take a deep breath, count to 10, and to try and accept that Chuck is Chuck. I was not happy about it, but I pulled away from the board for a few days, and let it go.

I decided at that time not to share this email with David. This was not an easy decision for me, because if something like that was being said about me, I would want to know it. But I was concerned with David’s ongoing health issues, and did not want to add to his stress level (already high because of Joe). I also retained a sense of loyalty to Chuck who I regarded as my friend. Several events occurred which caused me to change my mind and to share the email with him.

Among these, I had the opportunity to spend the day with David at his home in a fun atmosphere, and see how he was doing. He is doing great, although he did tire toward the end of the event. I also arrived early, in part to discuss some issues with him regarding the conflict between him and Joe. I was surprised to learn during that discussion, that Chuck had also made derogatory remarks directly to him. Including comments about his posting updates about his cancer on the board.

Recently, there was a dust up on the board between Chuck and myself. I asked a question of him on line, and he took umbrage. I did not (nor do I now) regard the question as inappropriate, and had intended to be supportive of the position (regarding not mailing chips in envelopes), but wanted to be sure I understood the situation better. The discussion on the board between Chuck and I deteriorated, and Chuck sent me an email that again I found upsetting (although not nearly as repulsive as the email regarding David), but this time directed at me. I again sought guidance from one person who advised me to let it go, and I dropped it. No more responding, no emails in response etc.

However, it seemed that was a one sided approach. Chuck continued to post on the board, and also sent out emails to others. While I do not know the specific contents of those emails, references to my friendship with David were made. I am aware of this because I received emails referencing them, I suppose the references could have been made on the board, but I never saw them. And to be fair, a third party could have referenced David in emails, but I think it is unlikely.

I became concerned that David could begin getting inquiries, and felt that it would be unfair to allow David to be blind sided. I did not feel that the email would cause problems for him health wise. I emailed him, forwarded the message, and outlined the current issue and my reasons for not sending it before. This was all done in more than one exchange. I made no suggestion to him regarding what action he should take.

Yesterday, he informed me that he was going to post the email, and did I have any opinions? I told him that it would cause a response, but I did not know what. I was unaware that he was intending to post the contents without the names of the sender or receiver, that was his decision. I did tell him that I could handle defending my actions, he responded with his support for the decisions I had made. I did not ask him to keep my name out of it, but I do believe he acted out of his friendship for me. . I did not ask him to keep my name out of it, but I do believe he acted out of his friendship for me.

I am pleased that the gist the responses have been supportive of David and Denise. They are wonderful folks going thru a tough time with class and character.

There have been some suggestion that I was wrong in sending the email to David. Since I debated the issue with myself twice, I can’t say that it is an invalid position to take.

If a person sends a communication to another (letter, email etc) there is an expectation of privacy from government intrusion, but not that the communication would not be shared with others. The exception for me obviously would be communications from clients or prospective clients, of which Chuck is neither. I did feel a sense of obligation (out of loyalty to a friend) regarding what was sent to me. I was able to get past that because Chuck made it clear on the board that we were not friends, and had not been for awhile. I was unaware of that, but I was even more amazed when the reasons appeared to be my friendship with David and the failure on my part to purchase some chip. Any vestige of loyalty ended when Chuck attacked another friend of mine on the board for defending me.

I presume every email I write, unless I secure a different assurance, may appear publicly. It is the height of hubris to suggest that a person can write anything in a ‘private’ email, and expect that those comments not be shared, or the views left unchallenged.

Gene Trimble and others raised some issues in an exchange with David. The email was not “passed around”, but I did share it with a select few to receive guidance. I asked each of them in my emails to keep the material confidential, and believe they all did. Hurting David is as far from my heart as is possible, but if David feels I may have been hurtful, then I owe him and Denise, and them alone penance on that. I have discussed this with him, and he has told me that he feels I did the right thing, and understood why I didn’t forward it initially.

I am impressed with how positively he is taking this, although he was upset that the comments were made, he was far more upset about the sympathy allegations made directly to him. Was my forwarding the email poor judgement? I don’t think so, but I can respect the contrary view. If it was poor judgement, then I am sorry to David and Denise for any pain this may have caused. But the comments that Chuck (and occasionally others) make and then erase, and the private emailing of nasty or threatening emails is a ufair in my opinion. I can’t fault David for challenging Chuck on this, but that is his battle, and he is capable of handling it.

My forwarding the email was certainly prompted by the exchange on the board and the third party responses, but only to the extent that Chuck brought the previous conflict to the forefront. There is no benefit to me, nor ulterior motive. In fact I am subject to (albeit legitimate) second guessing for having done so. If my goal would have been to hurt Chuck, I would have shared the last email he sent me with the board. I could have done that with much less soul wrenching.

Believe me, I still have doubts as to whether I did the right thing sharing it, and whether I did the right thing not sharing it earlier. I suppose the only solace I will find is knowing that I did not write the trash, nor did I do anything to lend support to the view expressed. I have attempted to be supportive and honest with my friends.

As for whether this constitutes grounds for club action? I don’t believe it does, however it is not up to me. I have opinions as to what Chuck should do, but that is for another place and time. I remember the positives Chuck has contributed, and the reasons I valued his friendship.

Chuck is not an evil person, nor do I believe he wishes harm on anybody. He does say what comes to mind, when it comes to mind, and is perfectly willing to attack with whatever words he feels will do the most harm. He is at times bitter and aggressive toward any person he feels has crossed him, and often resorts to these Junior High antics.

I hope that folks who care for him and that he will listen to, will help him understand he can’t behave in that manner, sadly, I have learned I am not in that group. His apology is a stand up thing, and I respect his doing so.

The other night Chuck Smorse posted his objection to the form a chip was sent him by another collector. The purchase was made on ebay, and Chuck had reportedly paid $2.50 for shipping. The chip arrived in a envelope with a $.41 stamp on it. With the USPS being so screwed up at the moment, I am amazed it was delivered at all. If not attacked for the initial question, this was the position I was ready to advocate:

I do not believe I know the other collector, or have ever dealt with him, so I have no feelings pro or con toward him, although I do note that several club members expressed negative views in that thread. The accumulative effect which would cause me to be reluctant to knowingly deal with this collector.

I asked a question of Chuck, which had no other purpose than to gather information. When I made my first trades thru the mail I sent them in an envelope with a stamp (I actually wrapped them in Kleenex to protect them). To my knowledge they all went thru, but I did receive an email from a more experienced collector warning me of the risks of sending chips in this way. I have also read various posts where chips had been broken, tore thru the envelope, or were marked up or marred by the postal process.

Chuck has a tendency to go full bore when he is fired up, and while many of us have always accepted it, it sometimes leaves information incomplete. I wanted to know if Chuck’s objection was limited to the shipping issue, or if it actually included the more significant issue of a lost or damaged chip, or (in the unlikely event) of it being the wrong chip entirely (a concern based solely upon the negative views being expressed toward the other collector).

If a person byes a chip on ebay, or in any other venue, they would be quite justified being upset if the chip arrived damaged. If the chip arrived in a manner which was not the commonly accepted manner for shipping the chip it would probably send me to riot mode also. If the chip was gone because it had torn thru the envelope, I would have had the same reaction as if it had been damaged. I would have given the seller an opportunity to make it right, but I still would have been unhappy.

But in this particular instance, the issue seems to be the shipping alone. I agree with the poster who said that the shipping amount is posted and that a bidder can take that into consideration when acting. They have no grounds for being upset later. That is not to suggest shipping amounts which are out of whack is not an appropriate issue for discussion, or that it shouldn’t be discussed in this venue.

But when you pay for shipping, you have a reasonable expectation that the shipping will be of a nature commonly accepted for that type of item. For a chip the popular method is the bubble mailer. Having obtained chips from Chuck, I feel it needs to be said, he has always packed his shipments to me exceptionally well. What is expected is based upon the amount paid (and any representations made by the seller in their auction).

Please remember, the seller has the obligation (legally-yes that ol lawyer c***) to get the purchased item to the buyer, just as the buyer has the obligation to get the payment to the seller. The buyer has no need to purchase insurance, because he enjoys the protection of the laws in this area. The seller may include the expected expense of insurance etc in posting his auction, but he cannot ‘require’ insurance of the seller, or wash his hands if the seller does not purchase insurance. To take money for ‘insurance’ and then to self insure may violate any number of relevant statutes, and I would discourage anyone from ever using that language. Many major corporate shippers (not referencing ebayers on this one) do self insure, but they do so because it is a profit center, and they include the cost in the S/H fees, but never mention insurance. But back to the point…

It is my opinion that the rage of reasonable shipping for a chip is up to $3. The higher the more I am bothered, and the higher my expectation of the seller. This is my own view, not one that is formalized anywhere, and is certainly open for reasonable disagreement. Personally I am not enthralled with the seller passing on his ebay cost to me thru shipping, but not being a seller (and being aware that ebay is squeezing sellers more now than before) I may have another view if I was.

Chuck paid $2.50 for shipping, in the upper range of what I consider reasonable. But the most Chuck could have reasonably expected would have been a bubble wrap mailer and maybe delivery confirmation. The confirmation is a bit optimistic, but I am amazed at how many shippers do it, and regretted not doing so the other day when I sent out some mailers (knock on wood it won’t be an issue). The least he should have gotten was a bubble wrap mailer.

The shipper was lucky the chip (apparently) was OK. But an envelope and a stamp is insufficient, and the seller should have known that (an inexperienced person may be a different call). A poster suggested that the seller may have been disappointed with the price achieved so he was trying to get a couple of extra dollars. I don’t know if that was the case, if so shame on the seller. If you get more than expected, do you take steps to over wrap the item?

Auctions are a capitalistic risk, and failing to meet legitimate expectations (which are nothing more than the commonly accepted manner) in shipping is unacceptable. Subsequent to Chuck’s thread, another buyer who was satisfied, thanked the seller, and commented positively on the shipping. The post included a scan of the bubble mailer the chip was sent in. Fair to say there is a difference, and perhaps that explains the different reactions.

Chuck did not ask for guidance on what actions he should take, if any. He clearly made his objection, said he was going to leave negative feedback, and encouraged others not to deal with this seller. I think he has a valid objection, but I also think he may have bee a little strong in his approach. It would have been fine to warn potential buyers of the problem, but more than that was a bit much. As for negative feedback (?), accepting that my input was not requested, so this is unsolicited, I agree with the poster who suggested neutral feedback, and make a point of the shipping. The chip did arrive and was as expected (other than the shipping).

I normally advocate reasonable and rational discussion, I try to encourage participants to not allow differing views to become personal attacks, and to keep the board pleasant. I often fail in this effort, and perhaps the remainder of this post would constitute such a failure. Why Chuck went off on my asking a question when he brought the issue to the board, is simply beyond me. I had always regarded Chuck as my friend, and was dismayed to learn that he does not like me, never has, and doesn’t like what I stand for (“which is nothing” {?}).

Chuck is a fan of ND, as you all know. I attended Purdue, an in state rival of ND’s. Chuck has initiated, what always seemed to be, a good natured back and forth so common among fans of different schools. I accepted the challenge and gave as good as I got, believing it to be a friendly back and forth. As long as it remained good natured, I was OK with it. That is what friends do

Over the years Chuck has helped me obtain a number of chips, at great prices. The first time I met him, he took it upon himself to help me get a $25 Peacock Lounge @ the Hard Rock chip. Being in a scooter made getting to the Hard Rock a little tough. I paid face and a buck for shipping. I tried to return the favor last year by trading him one of my two Hooters bobble heads, since he had been screwed out of his. I did give him a list of chips I was still looking for after the convention, in case he may have any to sell (the thought was I might get a good deal with the bobble head discount. Chuck mailed me 11 chips off that list, and asked if we could consider that the trade. I told him I was getting too much, and he said he was satisfied, and that was where we ended it. I was happy, and so was he (I believe). That is the Chuck I thought was my friend. That is the Chuck I miss.

Sadly, Chuck made it clear in his reaction to my question, that he did not consider us to be friends, and had not for a long time. I am disappointed about that. But I am pleased that Chuck took the time to consider what he had written, and that he apologized in a sincere manner, and did it publicly. He also wrote in the apology that he did consider me his friend, I like that because it makes the angst I have felt over this seem worthwhile.

Chuck, we have had a tough few days, at the convention let’s go off and have a drink, and a conversation. I will attempt to follow the advice Mike has posted in this thread, I will try to not mention any of this again, enough has been said already.