>> ... get into a debate with you?

Nope. You have neither the courage of your convictions nor reasonable grounds to support your extreme positions.

>> Sorry, liberals with socialistic secular ideals are completely lost.

Read Bob Orme's post. With the exception of his claim that the democratic party is more to blame than the republican party for the mess he describes, I agree with everything he says. It is a well-stated, reasonable discussion of the extremes to which the system has gone.

I disagree with him regarding partisan blame only because I think both parties are equally (or nearly so) at fault and have little use for either.

BTW, what does "secular" have to do with this discussion? Is there a religious component involved here that isn't readily apparent? Or maybe you think the minister/priest/rabbi/mullah of your church/synagoge/mosque would let that abandoned newborn die so as not to be considered too "liberal"?

----- jim o\-S