... nothing more or less than a bid that would win the auction by convincing others not to bid at all. Of course, on eBay, you can't really do this because of the proxy bidding.

I'm confused about this question:

>> >>I'm really willing to pay on each lot.<< I want to know, is this what the DEALER thinks it's worth, or what other COLLECTORS think it's worth. <<

I wasn't referring to either dealers or collectors. I was referring to me, myself and I. What I'M willing to pay, which may be more or less than what other collectors would pay and may be more or less than the dealer wants. I have purchased any number of chips for which I would gladly have paid MORE than the dealer was asking (or what the top bid was at auction).

The concept of "value" or "worth" of collectibles is VERY SLIPPERY. I will give you a personal example. At last year's convention, I bought a $100 Sonoma Joe's chip (North Bay Poker Classic Tournament chip; given out as part of payoff to winners of each tournament during the 1995 Poker tournament). Mel Jung had it for sale, marked $180; he gave me a discount, but I still paid a more than a few pennies for it.

I posted a scan of the chip on the board here (in the holder with the $180 price marked on it. Someone (can't remember who, now) asked, "Is that thing really worth $180?" Good question. It's not even in Eastman's CA book. Even though it's pictured on the cover, it's not listed in Mel's/Armin's CA book, either. I'm still not competely clear on how many of these things were acutlly made (the holder says "Only 5 Known", but I think that means known to have been turned in and therefore made available to collectors, as I think there were more handed out to the tournament winners at the card room).

In any event, I would have paid the full $180 to get the chip. In fact (sh! don't tell Mel <g>), I would have paid MORE than his asking price to get it, as it is the absolute KEY to a complete set of Sonoma Joe's chips. Now, those who don't collect SJ's will think I'm nuts, but I wouldn't sell it today for $1000. Does that mean it's "worth" $1000? Not at all, except to me. Does that mean the catalog "value" should be $1000. I doubt it. Should the catalog value be the $180 Mel priced it at? Or the lower price that I paid? Who knows? I'm not sure any other examples of this chip have been the subject of a reported sale, so how do you determine the value?

>> A shill bid is a dishonest practice. It puts the real bidder at a similar, and worse, disadvantage without any of the clear rules. I say worse because the reserve must be set up front, but the shill can play the bidders depending on the action and other knowledge of who they're dealing with. An intelligent bidder will shun the entire auction site that permits shills faster than he will shun a reserve auction. <<

Why does a shill bid necessarily put a bidder at a disadvantage? If everyone knows seller or shill bids are permitted, the rules are clear. And, the ability of the seller to enter a shill bid STILL can't make another bidder pay any more than he's willing to bid. If you think the shill has gone too high, STOP BIDDING. No harm done.

As for "intelligent" bidders shunning auctions that permit shills, I think you're going to be surprised at the results of my survey.

And, remember to revisit this post after I get to THE POINT.

----- jim o\-S