Jim; I'm happy to see your last sentence to the above post, "I'm not done yet". Sorry I'm getting in on the tail end of this thread, but I've just returned to Brick from my weekend retreat.

Here is my view on WHY shills should not be utilized ... and I'm specifically excluding ebay.

The use of shills destroys the real value of any item being offered for sale in a legitimate auction. HOW? Because authors of reference catalogs use prices realized in auctions as a major consideration when compiling their information that many would-be bidders base their estimates on what a particular item is worth.

How did Billy Bob decide that the item he was bidding on was worth $200? Maybe he got it from a well respected reference catalog that took that value from an item that was shill bid to that level, but was not actually SOLD at that level.

Jim, we all know that there are auctions conducted on other web sites. Don't you think that those auction's credibility would be devastated if it became known that highly valued chips don't trade hands ..... that the site is just a vehicle to obtain false values on scarce to rare items? A chip that was shill bid to $500 now has a track record that can be cited in a future sale. "Such and such chip brought $500 at our 1999 sale" ... when the fact is it didn't sell at all. In effect, it was bought back by the seller under the I.D. of a false buyer. THAT, (in my opinion), IS WHY SHILL BIDS SHOULD BE DISALLOWED..... and how bidders get hurt.... ebay notwithstanding.